Sian Beilock | How Not To Choke Under Pressure
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If you're someone who chokes under pressure, you're gonna learn a lot from this episode. Today we are going to talk with Sian about helpful strategies to prepare yourself for those stressful situations, so you can excel and feel confident about your performance.
Key Takeaways From This Episode
The pressure of being seen by family
Interpreting bodily responses
Practicing self-compassion
Distracting yourself before your performance
Taking a step back from a stressful situation
Disclaimer: All of the information and views shared on the Live Greatly podcast are purely the opinions of the authors, and they are not medical advice or treatment recommendations. The contents of this podcast are intended for informational and educational purposes only. Always seek the guidance of your physician or qualified health professional for any recommendations specific to you or for any questions regarding your specific health, your sleep patterns, changes to diet and exercise, or any medical conditions.
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking
Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To
About Sian Beilock
Sian Beilock is a cognitive scientist by training and serves as the eighth President of Barnard College at Columbia University. As one of the most selective academic institutions in the United States, Barnard College is devoted to empowering exceptional women to change the world and the way we think about it.
She has authored two critically acclaimed books published in more than a dozen languages—Choke (2010) and How the Body Knows Its Mind (2015)—as well as over 100 peer-reviewed publications. Her 2017 TED talk has been viewed over 2 million times.
Connect with Sian
Website: www.sianbeilock.com
Instagram: @presbeilock
If you are struggling with feeling overworked or overwhelmed, access the Top 10 Stress Management Tips for the Overworked free right now.
Kristel Bauer, the Founder of Live Greatly, is on a mission to help people awaken to their ultimate potential. She is a wellness expert, Integrative Medicine Fellow, Keynote Speaker, Physician Assistant, & Reiki Master with the goal of empowering others to live their best lives!
Follow her on:
Instagram: @livegreatly_co
Clubhouse: @livegreatly
LinkedIn: Kristel Bauer
Youtube: Live Greatly, Kristel Bauer
To learn more about Live Greatly's transformative online courses for personal development and self-improvement, to discuss collaborations and partnerships, or to book Kristel as a speaker or consultant, click here.
Episode Transcript:
Sian (Teaser)
10 minutes before that big performance or that job interview. Do a crossword puzzle. Look at the news, do something that distracts yourself, listen to music, anything that takes your mind off or what you're about to do.
Kristel (Guest Intro)
If you're someone who gets nervous when the pressure is on, you're going to gain a ton of value from today's episode. I have Sian Beilock here with me today and she is an expert on why people choke under pressure and how to fix it. We're going to be talking about different strategies and things that you can do to prepare for those stressful situations so that you can excel and feel really, really good about your performance.
We're also going to be talking about different ways that you can help your children to be able to excel under times of stress when the pressure is on Sian is a Cognitive Scientist. She's the president of Barnard College at Columbia University. She has an incredible Ted talk and she also has a couple of really wonderful books in 2010.
She wrote choke and in 2015, she wrote how the body knows its mind. And she's just an incredible woman with a ton of value to offer. And I'm so excited that she's here today. So let's go ahead and welcome Sian Beilock to the show.
Sian:
Thanks for having me.
Kristel:
I would love to hear just in your own words, a little bit about your background and what got you into this area of performance anxiety and how to not choke under pressure.
Sian:
I'm a cognitive scientist by training, which means that I really study the brain and body factors that influence performance. So I want to know how people perform at their best. And I'm especially interested in why sometimes in those situations where we want to perform at our best, where we feel a lot of pressure to perform at our best.
We just can't put our best foot forward. And people often ask me how I got into this and I definitely do a bit of the search in addition to research. So I want to know why I haven't always performed at my top in those various situations where I really wanted to show everyone what I do.
Kristel:
Right. And I can relate to that.
I think back to when I was a kid and my parents were wonderful and always coming to my games and my sports games and I would play basketball. And I remember as a kid being like, I don't know if I want you to come to this game because I would look up and I would see them and it would make me nervous.
And I would freeze and it wasn't because I didn't want them to be there supporting me. I just didn't know how to handle that.
Sian:
Yeah. And sometimes the friendliest faces, the most supportive audience members can really make you nervous either. It makes you sort of see yourself through their eyes, maybe as a little girl or not as tough, or, you know, you just want to perform well in front of them.
And that puts added pressure on. And so a lot of parents asked me about this. And I talk about really leaving it up to your kids about going to games. But if you are going to go to important matches, you got to let them practice with you there. So show up at practice sometimes. So it's not just in the game when all eyes are on them.
Kristel:
All right. That's really great advice. And I would love to know, What specific tips you have for people and how to thrive in those situations. And I'd be curious too, if it's a different, depending on the situation, like you have the sporting events, you have the speaking events, you have the test taking, you know, all those big high stress environments.
Sian:
Yeah. I don't think you choke differently in these different situations, which is actually really interesting because then you can study how athletes get ready and perform under stress and you can apply it to the business world or vice versa. Um, and public speaking is something so many people fear, and you can take lessons from all different places to apply to public speaking.
And basically, you know, what happens in these situations is that we start worrying about the situation, it's consequences when others will think of us, we really change how we perform and. One thing we do is we often pay too much attention to aspects of what we're doing that should just be left on autopilot.
So it's kind of like if you're shuffling down the stairs and I asked you to think about what you're doing with your knee, you'll fall on your face, right? You don't normally think about all that stuff, but when all eyes are on you, all of a sudden, every word coming out of your mouth, every movement you make. You're thinking about what other people are thinking about it, and it actually could disrupt your performance. And I know we've all had this experience in all sorts of situations, whether it's interviews or even introducing yourself to someone at a party, we often like freeze. We can't get the words out.
This is not a high stakes situation, but we're feeling a little bit depression.
Kristel:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about all these different environments where that happens. And it, for me personally, it's when things take me by surprise, like if I'm not expecting it, because if I can expect an event, I can prepare for it.
I used to be really afraid of public speaking. And I was like, I'm just going to practice. I'm going to keep doing it. I'm going to teach now the podcast and the speaking and TV stuff. It's like, it gets easier the more you do it.
But recently I ran into someone and we were having a casual conversation. And then I'm writing a book and they were like, tell me about your book. And I just wasn't ready. And I, all of a sudden I was like, uh, uh,
Sian:
yeah, and that's, that's a really good example, but I think what that tells me is that you should be finding people to give that three minute elevator pitch to like your friends and family.
You should practice your pitch because then it will be practiced even when it's unexpected. And I think that's one of the most important lessons that you have to practice under the kinds of conditions you're going to perform. So, if you're giving a speech, it's not practicing just by yourself, it's practicing in front of other people or even videotaping yourself.
Anything that gets you used to that feeling of all eyes on you will help you become more accustomed to what's going to happen in the real situation. And you don't need a lot of pressure. You can mimic some of the feelings you'll have just with a little bit of stress, just with, I always say practice in front of the mirror.
If no one, you can't get anyone to watch you because we know we become more self-conscious in front of the mirror.
Kristel:
Yeah, that's true. I actually, personally would feel more comfortable, probably videoing myself than doing it in front of a mirror.
Sian:
Which is interesting now because you can actually see yourself. And so that to me suggests that you should practice in front of the mirror.
Kristel:
I'm going to, I like that tip. That's really helpful. Cause I'm doing some TV interviews next week. So I'm like, that'll be perfect to just get more out of my comfort zone. These are great for like preparation, but what about in those situations where.
You haven't prepared when you're kind of you're in that elevator and you're going to give your pitch and you haven't practiced it. Right. What can you do in those situations where that fight or flight kicks in you are over-analyzing, you are overthinking and I have an integrative psychiatry backgrounds.
I have some thoughts about, okay, well, what do you do to calm down that Nervous system response, but I would love to hear what your perspective is on and tips that you may have in those environments.
Sian:
Yeah my next tip, I bet is going to be one that you resonate with, and that is that we can, we really do have the power to re interpret our bodily reactions so that sweaty palms, a beating heart.
If you interpret it as the sign, you're about to fall on your face. There's a good chance you will. But we have research and my colleagues have research showing that when we can get people to reinterpret those reactions right that beating heart is same. Whether you're excited and someone's proposing to you or you're freaking out, it is so.
Remembering that that heart is beating. It's a sign you're ready to go. It's shutting blood to your brain. So you can think re-interpreting that arousal can actually be the difference between succeeding and failing. And so that's a really important one. Remind yourself that your bodily signs are not signs of failure, but they're signs of being ready and up for the challenge.
Kristel:
That's really helpful. Now you did a fantastic Ted talk. And from what I've heard, I've talked with some others who have had Ted talks and I've heard it's a nerve wracking experience. There's a lot of pressure there from everyone I've talked to like tears and intensity. So I would love to hear about your experience with it and what you did to prepare yourself and how you felt with the whole experience.
Sian:
It's really stressful. And they ask you to memorize your talk. And I never memorize my talks because they want you to get the timing. Right. And so you're, I was worried that I'd forget part of it. And what was even more stressful is like your parents.
It was in Palm Springs and I live in New York, but my mom's in Northern California and she flew in to watch. So I had my mother in the audience and what I did was that morning, you could go see a coach and get practiced. And I practiced the talk in front of them twice. The first time I totally Bombed it, but I practiced with him watching.
And I had practiced for the couple of weeks before that with other people watching, I was pulling people in from my office just to listen to me. And that was actually really helpful in terms of, of getting ready to go. And then I always am reminding myself that my body's getting ready so I can think not to fail.
And another tip that I have that we've shown in our research and that I think is really important is being able to think back to those times when you have succeeded in the past. For me, I always pull on a time in college, actually, where I had to take a test where I was programming in a specific computer language.
And I thought I was going to bomb it. I like panicked. I didn't think I was going to do it. And I pulled it out. And so I always think back like, I can do this. So setting your mindset in terms of why you should succeed rather than why you should fail. And you can do this in all sorts of ways. I know my talk better than anyone else.
Like you're not going to tell me no, one's going to tell me that they know my material better. So even if I don't get it totally right, no, one's going to know these sorts of things. Actually, we don't have to let our inner monologue control us. Like we can actually control it.
Kristel:
Right. Know I love that. And you can have it, you know, you don't have to get rid of it, but don't let it dictate your actions.
Right. I can kind of be more in the background, so it's not controlling what you do and what you don't do.
Sian:
And also, I mean, I think this is a really overlooked aspect of just human psychology is that the most important conversations we ever have are with ourselves and we have them constantly and we tend to be mean to ourselves.
Like you're harsher on yourself. Like think back to some of the things you've said to yourself, you would never say that to a friend who we're trying to amp up to get ready to go. And so I think when general, we don't spend enough time talking about self-compassion and the practice of self-compassion and it's a skill like anything else that you can learn.
And I'm a big fan of thinking about self passionate.
Kristel:
That's really helpful. And also just. That compassion for yourself when you're trying something new and you are pushing out of your comfort zone. I think switching that perspective of like, what if I fail or too, I'm really proud of myself for doing this.
You know, this is helping with my growth and it's okay if my voice is a little shaky, it's okay if I'm having those sensations, because that is part of it. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
Sian:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's giving yourself a break for not being perfect. And also you're going to notice it way more than anyone else. In psychology we have a term called the spotlight effect and it describes the phenomenon where you believe everyone's paid way more attention to you than you actually are. And so things you do that you think everyone has registered and is thinking about all the time, guess what? They're not, they're thinking about themselves.
Right. And there's been these great studies where they've had like undergraduates in college, go into rooms, wearing really embarrassing t-shirts like in the classroom. And then they ask them to rate how many people will remember that they walked in wearing a teacher. And then they actually have the people in the class rate it if they remembered it like two weeks later.
And it turns out everyone who walked in wearing the embarrassing t-shirt is convinced that everyone else is going to remember they did it. And it turns out that most people don't remember it all because they're paying attention to themselves.
Kristel:
Right. Yeah, that's important to remember and this fear of judgment and this fear of rejection, I think it's a normal thing, but it shouldn't dictate what you do and what you don't do.
It's really being able to overcome that.
Sian:
Yeah. And actually, I think oftentimes it's reminding yourself about the spotlight effect is so important after an event when we start ruminating. Right. And just reminding yourself that others don't have the same perspective. They're not judging you as harshly and they probably don't remember half of what you did.
And I think we can all think back to good examples of this. Let's say you're out with your friends, that you say something you didn't want to say. It's a little embarrassing. And then you turn to your best friend later and you said, I can't believe I said that. And like half the time, your best friend is like, Ugh. I don't even remember what you said.
Kristel:
Yeah. Yes. I know I've gotten text messages occasionally. Like I'm so sorry about something that wasn't even on my radar, I'm like, oh, but that goes to show a lot of us just are overthinking these things. Yeah. So that is a nice segue into, uh, talking about mindfulness, which I'm curious if you've seen that to be helpful in these situations for people who have spent some time training their minds to be in the present moment. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Sian:
Yeah, well, I've written two books choke about performance under stress and how the body knows it's fine, which focuses all about the environment and mindfulness and how we can use our bodies and our environment to change our mind.
In that second book, I have a whole chapter on meditation and mindfulness.
And I think what's so exciting about the research in this area. The neuroscience research is that you don't have to be a Yogi or spend hundreds of hours practicing to really see benefits right. Even small amounts of mindfulness practice can help you stay in the present, not be drawn off by your thoughts and actually have a narration for what you're doing that's more positive.
Kristel:
So what would be some accessible tips that someone could start for a mindfulness practice? Like for our listener, something that they could do, like after listening to the podcast?
Sian:
Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of apps that Headspace is one comm is another where you can just download small meditations.
In fact, I did one with my ten-year-old last night while we were getting ready for bed. Just something that sort of calms you down. It gives you permission to take 10 minutes to think about your body, to be in the present. The more you practice doing it, the easier it becomes to do it.
Kristel:
I've noticed at least with my kids, like that seems to come more naturally for kids just being in the present.
And I like there's part of me is like, oh, that's so nice. I miss that. Like, it takes more work for me as a child. I just was like, it was so easy.
Sian:
Yeah. And I think comes from even those. How we think about brain development, right? This front part of our brain that controls our ability to focus, develops well into our 20.
It often can take over for adults in ways that are maladaptive. So learning like a kid. Being like a kid has some real basis in neuroscience.
Kristel:
Interesting. Okay. That's really, really helpful. So if you want to learn more about that, definitely check out your books. I will put links in the episode details so everyone can access them.
And then also your Ted talk as well. I would love to hear just the little tidbits about your Ted talk and some of the highlights, and then a listener can go and pick up the rest of it after.
Sian:
Yeah, I mean, I talked about my own experience or in, in high school, I played soccer at a high level and my own experience with having my worst game in front of the national coach.
And it really got me intrigued with this idea that. I wanted to know why it happened. Like certainly I didn't want to play badly and certainly I had the skill to play well. So what changed? And it turned out there wasn't a lot of research on why people choked or perform more poorly than expected given their skill level when they wanted to perform at their best.
And so that's really what I delved into in my research. And one of the really important things that I found is that perhaps a little counterintuitively in these stressful situations, we start trying to control every aspect of what we're doing. Instead of letting it run on autopilot and that can be actually really disruptive.
So when you're a coach on the sideline or parent, and you tell your kid to concentrate really hard, that could be the worst thing you do in that moment. Instead 10 minutes before that big performance or that job interview do a crossword puzzle, look at the news, do something that distracts yourself, listen to music, anything that takes your mind off of what you're about to do.
Kristel:
Interesting. I found, yeah, if I can go for a run or listen to some good music or even laugh before a bigger event. It just, it does take the pressure off. It's like, all right, it's no big deal can do this. You can do it.
Sian:
And one thing to walk instead of cramming in those last minutes, which we know doesn't work.
Think about the three key points you want to get across. They take away nothing else. What are the three tips? And then if you have a little moment of panic, you can fall back on those three things. They're kind of like your security blanket. They're always there. And it turns out that that is probably more than they're going to remember anyway. So three things would be great.
Kristel:
What about your body like using your body or pastures to build confidence in these situations? Is there anything that we can do to make us feel more empowered?
Sian:
Yeah, I think, you know, there's been a lot of debate about whether sort of holding power poses is actually effective and one of the trends that seems to come through is that it can help increase your self-confidence. If I had like the fake it till you make it and our body sends a signal to other people about how they should feel about us. And it also sends a signal about how we should feel about ourselves.
So standing tall, walking and feeling, looking like you know what you're doing and are ready to take over isn't going to hurt you. And I think it's great to be able to embody it in any way you can.
Kristel:
Yeah. What about color choices? I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that. I think personally it's like, if there's a certain color that makes you feel that you like that makes you feel good, or you staying with clothes, like if you're going to dress in a way that makes you feel confident, I think that can only promote, um, optimal performance. But I would love to know your thoughts on that.
Sian:
Yeah. I mean, I think you don't want your attention to be drawn away to worrying about what you're wearing or whether it's too short or how it looks like. You should wear something that you feel good about it. And so I'm back to my 10 year old, but her best socks are in the laundry and she had to do something important at school you know and I said, wear your dirty socks. They make you feel good. It's way better.
And it's things like that. I think we tend to discount how much they matter. And the point is to go in feeling confident and not worried and distracted by these things.
Kristel:
So really it's whatever we can do to take the pressure off and make these things not seem as big of a deal.
So it's not about obsessing and rethinking and going through your mind a million times before, right before the event and over analyzing it's more about just doing something to take your mind off of it, that’s what I am getting.
Sian:
Yeah, that's right. There's a time and place to practice and right before is not that time.
Kristel:
Okay, that is so helpful. And that's my biggest takeaway from our conversation, because I think the common belief out there is that cramming mentality got to do it up to that last minute. But that actually, from what I'm understanding could be detrimental.
Sian:
That's right. And it's also, there's psychology research showing that stepping back, taking a break is actually a great way to learn and see things from new perspectives.
So it's kind of like when you have that really great retort to your spouse, 10 minutes after the fight, it's when you take a step back. And so there's a real benefit for taking a step back either right before, or as you're working on something those breaks matter.
Kristel:
I’m all about micro self-care breaks. And that helped me a lot too when I was practicing and I was seeing a lot of patients. In between I would just do something. I would do some like she gong or like move or do something where I felt like just, yeah, refreshing my mind.
And I think there's a real value there for people when you're going into a stressful situation. Like what you said to kind of just take that break, to do something that makes you feel good.
Sian:
Take that time, like, uh, I'm president of Barnard College, which is the premier institution focused on women's leadership at associated with Columbia University and our students drive. They push really hard and we talk a lot about just stepping outside, looking at the trees, walking over to the park.
Which is right across the street. Anything that sort of gets you up from your chair? I think we have this tendency to want to bang our head against the wall to get to the answer. And it turns out there's lots of research suggesting that's not the best way to think at your best.
Kristel:
So if someone is feeling really overwhelmed with a project at work, or, you know, you're cramming it out, like I'm working on a book proposal right now, if I'm just like, oh, overwhelmed. The tendency, I think for a lot of people is to push through it, to finish it.
But really taking a moment and doing something different.
It is so important and you can actually, you become more creative. You can seek connections, you didn't, it's kind of like when your computer freezes and you have to do a hard reboot, you get rid of all the connections, the wrong connections, and you're better able to come back refresh, and you can see this in all sorts of studies, but we talk about it as this incubation effect.
It turns out that your mind is working on things, even when you're not. Mostly focusing on them. It's oftentimes why you have the great idea in the shower or after you slept students in school tend to cramp, right. And they pull all nighters, but that sleep is so important. Not only for your physical health, it actually changes how your brain functions and what you know, and learn.
Kristel:
This is incredibly valuable. So the biggest takeaways are that I'm getting take breaks, don't push through it. You will be more productive and have more creativity. If you allow your brain to have that time to rest. And you go look at outside, go for a walk. And also as far as performance, anxiety and pressure and not choking, it's really preparation and perspective.
Sian:
And I think I love both of those preparation and perspective. Like you have control of what happens for the most part.
Kristel:
I love that. So I'm going to challenge you as a listener right now to take a look at your day today. And I want you to carve out some time to practice something, whatever it is you're going for.
If you have a pitch, if you have an interview, if you have a sporting event, um, whatever it is, I want you to practice and start working towards building that confidence. And if you can do it in the mirror from what you're saying. I think that would be the way to do it. And that's what I'm going to be doing later this week, too.
So this has been incredible. I'm going to do a quick lightning round and then we're going to close. So anything that you would like to add as far as how people can find you, they want to learn more. I, again, I'll put links in the episode details, but anything else you would like to share before we jump into the lightning round?
Sian:
Yeah, you can find more about my research and my books at Sianbeilock.com. That's my name. I know that's a tongue twister and I'm on Instagram as presBeilock P R E S B E I L O C K. And on Twitter is Sian Beilock
Kristel:
Fantastic. All right, so let's jump into it. So, first question, what new book would you recommend that you personally really enjoy?
Sian:
Oh, that's a great question. What have I read lately? You know, I just read quiet. It's not so new by Susan Cain that talks about the power of introverts and I thought it was a great, okay.
Kristel:
Interesting. And second question. What is a top self-care tip that you personally use that really works well for you.
Sian:
I would say, it's that stepping back, like I will take five minutes to walk through campus or get up and walk around my office.
I look out at the trees, anything that sort of gets me up from what I'm doing.
Kristel:
That's a great one. And then last question, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give to yourself from 10 years ago?
Sian:
Oh, that's such a great question. When you're uncomfortable, like taking challenges or you even fail, it's not always going to feel so bad, you get over it and you look back at some things that you really wanted to get, didn't get, or somewhere where you felt like a fool.
And I guarantee it doesn't feel as bad later when you look back as it does in the moment, which I hope gives my younger self. Sort of confidence and feeling of power to go out there and take those risks.
Kristel:
I love that. I love that. Well, this has been so extremely valuable for me and I'm sure for all of the listeners, so I can't thank you enough for taking some time with me today to share all of your wisdom.
Sian:
Oh, it was really fun. Thanks for having me.
Kristel:
Thank you.